Skip to content

Dear Mrs. Joseph Tate Bayly VI,

August 24, 2008

I read your poem on your father-in-law’s blog. Based on his apparent age from the photos, I surmise that you are a younger woman than I, perhaps contemporary (or slightly older) than my adult children and my own daughter in law (who are in their 20’s). As an older woman, God’s CALL to me in Titus 2 is to teach the younger women HOW to love their husbands and children. That CALL is what motivates this letter.

This part of your poem resonated with me intensely:

A wife – who worships you.
sleeps dreams wakes lives for you.
Who demands no loss of self no submission no obedience.
Who is your god?

Can you see the idolatry? I lived that paradigm for 22 years and died inside as you describe in this part of your poem:

Will you be a wife? Lay you in the casket.
To be one man’s Help Mate. To follow respect submit obey
Will you stand behind a man? Purge you of dignity you of self-determination.
Will you be weak so He will be strong?
Will you be a wife? … Rid you of ambition
He is you now
u disappear

If you are sincerely thinking that the above is God’s calling for you as a wife, I am very concerned for you and your children beloved sister! I want to hold out my hand to you and proclaim to you-in Jesus name- “ARISE MY BELOVED”!

“Will you be a wife? Lay you in the casket”

Are you aware that Ephesians 5 has differing instructions for the male and female of the marriage? Eph 5 is quite clear that the husband is called to lay down his life for his wife. Eph 5: 25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it ” Can you see how your words usurp the husband’s call and “put the pants on the wife” by suggesting that it is she whom God has called to “Lay you in the casket” within the marriage? Your job as help MEET is to HELP him be Christlike! Taking over his calling in the marriage robs him of the opportunity to do what God instructs and lay down his life for you.

(Please don’t misunderstand me as saying women and wives do not have a more general “christian” call to die to self and lay down life, but I think it is more natural for women to do so especially once she is married and bearing children. It comes with pregnancy and mothering and the built in feminine “maternal instinct”. Laying down life “happens” with pregnancy, labor, and 2am feedings. Thus the instruction -within marriage- is directed uniquely to husbands)

To be one man’s Help Mate.

The biblical word describing GOD’s assignment for you as your husband’s wife does not translate “help MATE“. That is a corruption of the King James translation “help MEET“. For more on this see Help MEET

To follow respect submit obey

The Bible teaches us to be respectful toward one another and “wives submit to your husbands”. You are to follow and obey the Lord Jesus Christ. My gravest and most destructive error was confusing the concepts of “submission” and “obedience”. More about that here: Obey?

Will you stand behind a man? Purge you of dignity you of self-determination.
Will you be weak so He will be strong?

Mrs Tate, I ask you, WHO wants to ROB your husband of his Proverbs 31 wife and you of your High and Holy CALLING to be help MEET and KEEPER of the home?
Please, please, please don’t listen to the devil’s whispers!

“She is clothed with strength and dignity…”
Proverbs 31:25

I exhort you, my sister, to renounce your indignity and weakness in the name and by the blood of Jesus, and take up DIGNITY and STRENGTH so that you may be the wife God is CALLING you to be!

EMBRACE YOUR CALL TO DIGNITY and STRENGTH!

Indeed, “purge you of SELF-determination” and obey GOD’s CALL upon your life! I speak from experience that your husband’s will and God’s will do not always match. You will need to be deeply in touch with God and cultivate ears to hear HIS still small voice. Everything HE has CALLED you to, HE is responsible to equip you to accomplish. REST in HIS care. If your beloved husband is anything like his daddy (Tim Bayly), you have a very challenging calling indeed! The Baylys strike me as strong, stubborn, powerful, unbridled stallions! To be assigned by GOD as HELP MEET for a Bayly man requires an incredibly strong and gifted woman!

I must confess to you that I- likewise married a strong, stubborn, powerful, unbridled stallion- was weak and undignified and I was crushed by him,
And that is not the worst of it Mrs Bayly 😦
I allowed our children to be crushed by him 😦
I failed in my CALLING to be KEEPER of the home 😦
May you rise up from your coffin. LIVE beloved sister! Fulfill YOUR CALLING to be KEEPER and EZER (Help MEET) with dignity and strength

Will you be a wife? … Rid you of ambition

In the words of a song I have heard
“give me one pure and holy passion
give me one magnificent obsession
give me one glorious ambition for my life
to know and follow hard after YOU, LORD!”


He is you now
u disappear

I hope the “He” there is HE, as in CHRIST?
I assume that is the ONE you meant 🙂
Indeed, Beloved sister in Christ, “it is no longer I who lives but Christ who lives in me”. That is how I become who God has made “me” to be. I wouldn’t say that “I” disappear, but GOD scoops the dross off that this treasure in an earthen vessel may better reflect HIM. Mrs Bayly, I remembered you in prayer today, that you will be a chavil wife!

Advertisements
39 Comments leave one →
  1. August 25, 2008 8:56 pm

    Dear Charis,

    I have been watching with interest the discussion on the Internet surrounding the poem written by my dear friend and sister in Christ, Mrs. Joseph Bayly. Most of what has been written on the Baylys’ blog and on others like yours has been almost humorously off the mark. I don’t at all mean to sound rude in that, but there are two problems with most of what I have read. Either the authors do not understand the poem itself, or they don’t have any idea what kind of woman Mrs. Bayly is or what kind of men the Baylys (both older and younger) are.

    Take the misunderstanding of the poem first.

    What most of the people who are discussing the poem seem to have missed is that the first half is riddled with sarcasm and is addressed to a woman, not a man. It seems that you have misunderstood the first section that you quote above in your post.

    “A wife – who worships you.
    sleeps dreams wakes lives for you.
    Who demands no loss of self no submission no obedience.
    Who is your god?”

    The poet is saying that the woman she is addressing does not want a husband, she wants a wife instead. She wants a man who is not a husband, but a man who is a “wife.” She wants to be worshiped by this “wife.” She wants a helper suitable for her, instead of wanting to be a helper suitable for her husband.

    Now, I know that you don’t believe what Mrs. Bayly and I and many others believe about what a godly marriage should look like. But the poem does make more sense when you understand it as the author intended.

    Secondly, and this is even more disturbing to me, you have completely and utterly misunderstood the lady who wrote this poem, her husband, her father-in-law, her mother-in-law, her three sisters-in-law, their husbands, her four nephews and one niece, and her church.

    What is so disturbing–and even a bit comical–is that you think the women in the Bayly family and in their church are weak, undignified, timid, beaten-down, suppressed, fearful, squashed, and stifled. That really is quite remarkably, ridiculously funny! I wish you knew the strength and the dignity and the joy and the wisdom of these women. The strength and dignity of the Bayly women is legendary!

    And, on the other hand, you think that the Bayly men and the men who have married into the family, and the men in Pastor Bayly’s church, must be boorish, ham-fisted, thuggish, uncouth, monstrous, barbaric tyrants. Again, nothing could be further from the truth. Pastor Bayly is one of the most sentimental, soft-hearted men that I know. And Joseph Bayly, the husband of the poem’s author, is one of the kindest, gentlest, most compassionate men that I know.

    If you were to come and visit us, Charis, what you would see in these families is warmth and joy. You would see families–and a broader church family–that love to be together, that love the multitudes of children who swarm playfully all over the place, families that have healthy, forgiving, loving, respectful, gentle relationships.

    The thing is, they have these things–not in spite of their belief in Biblical manhood and womanhood–but precisely because they believe those things.

    I am a pastor and I know that men and women are sinners. Nothing surprises me anymore. I know that men use God’s commands to their wives as excuses for their own heavy-handed authoritarianism. I also know that women use God’s commands to their husbands as tools of manipulation. Of course! I am sorry you were on the receiving end of that kind of wickedness. But, sister, your husband’s sin does not change God’s commands to you as a wife. God’s Word can be twisted in many, many ways. We must not overreact to that twisting, lest we twist it ourselves in the opposite direction.

    I hope you will take this letter seriously. If you would like to come to our church, worship with us, meet the Baylys and their children and grandchildren and the many men and women who love them, please email me. I am very sincere in this offer. You may not come to agree with the things we believe, but you would come away with a very, very different idea of who we are.

    Warmly in Christ,
    Pastor Stephen Baker

  2. Charis permalink*
    August 25, 2008 9:14 pm

    The poet is saying that the woman she is addressing does not want a husband, she wants a wife instead. She wants a man who is not a husband, but a man who is a “wife.” She wants to be worshiped by this “wife.” She wants a helper suitable for her, instead of wanting to be a helper suitable for her husband.

    Yes, I understood that. It still concerns me.

    I am not a regular reader of Baylyblog. A little taste of it tells me that if the Bayly men treat their children anything like I have seen them treat people on their blogs, then there are problems in “Bayly paradise”, Pastor.

    Thank you for your gracious invitation to visit your church. You didn’t say where your church is? I expect that the distance is prohibitive.

  3. August 26, 2008 9:48 am

    “A little taste of it tells me that if the Bayly men treat their children anything like I have seen them treat people on their blogs, then there are problems in “Bayly paradise”, Pastor.”

    Charis, I’m sorry, but you are simply wrong about that. Yes, of course Pastor Bayly is a sinner. Listen to his sermons and he will tell you all about it. But you simply do not understand the whole picture. The blog is a teaching tool directed mainly at church leaders. It is nothing at all like a sermon, a counseling session, a conversation after church, or family fellowship around the dinner table. When God’s truth is denied or attacked, Tim will defend it. You will not see him defending himself against the many incredibly nasty personal attacks against him, some of which I would not repeat for decency’s sake. The personal nastiness comes from those who hate what he writes.

    Our church is located in southern Indiana. If you click on my name, it will take you to our website.

    Warmly in Christ,
    Stephen Baker

  4. Charis permalink*
    August 26, 2008 12:24 pm

    Hello again Pastor Baker,

    Indiana is far.

    You will not see him defending himself against the many incredibly nasty personal attacks against him, some of which I would not repeat for decency’s sake. The personal nastiness comes from those who hate what he writes.

    Not responding in kind to verbal abuse is commendable. Jesus role models that. (click to see How to “love life and see good days”)

    Charis, I’m sorry, but you are simply wrong about that. Yes, of course Pastor Bayly is a sinner. Listen to his sermons and he will tell you all about it. But you simply do not understand the whole picture. The blog is a teaching tool directed mainly at church leaders. It is nothing at all like a sermon, a counseling session, a conversation after church, or family fellowship around the dinner table. When God’s truth is denied or attacked, Tim will defend it.

    I think HOW one defends truth speaks loudly. (click to see “works of the flesh”) And I’m sorry, Pastor, but I have trouble believing that HOW he shepherds his blog bears no resemblance whatsoever to how he shepherds his church and his family. I wonder what will happen when a Bayly wife or child has a different opinion on some dearly held belief of a Bayly man? I know, I know, all the wives and children agree with the Bayly men… (and wouldn’t dare have a mind of their own. Been there and done that, Pastor. Its weak. And it is unhealthy for a strong bucking unbridled stallion of a husband to have a weak wife.).

    Warmly too,
    Charis

  5. August 26, 2008 2:52 pm

    Pastor Baker,

    I will admit that I had trouble understanding the poem. I did realize that the first part was addressed to a wife who supposedly wanted a husband who acted like a wife. I attempted to interpret the poem in light of that. My view of a wife, naturally, differs from that expressed by the author of the poem. I do not, for example, believe it appropriate that the wife worship her husband. At the same time, I fully recognize the temptation of wives to do so and the temptation of husbands to encourage this.

    As for the rest of the poem…I share some of the same concerns about the wife becoming weak so that the husband can be strong. This seems, to me, the plain meaning of the words.

    I recognize that I know nothing of the author…have not met any of the Bayly family…only know of them through their online presence. They might be wonderful, godly, delightful, soft teddy bear sorts who show their gruff side only online. That really doesn’t concern me. What concerns me is that this poem, read for its most obvious meaning, contains much that is not in keeping with what Scripture teaches about the role of husbands and wives, and about the doctrine of true godly sexuality.

    Perhaps I am overly literal in my reading both of Scripture and of the poem. Since you have been so gracious as to post here, perhaps you could enlighten us to what the poem really means, and how it expresses the truth of Scripture.

    Thank you.

  6. Charis permalink*
    August 26, 2008 3:20 pm

    Perhaps I am overly literal in my reading both of Scripture and of the poem. Since you have been so gracious as to post here, perhaps you could enlighten us to what the poem really means, and how it expresses the truth of Scripture.

    Ditto, Rebecca and welcome. 🙂
    I too tend to be very literal.

    Pastor Baker, I echo Rebecca’s invitation for you to clarify.

  7. August 26, 2008 3:21 pm

    One more question…why, if the author of the poem is as you describe her, did she choose to write a poem in a style and wording that too many readers have felt was reminiscent of the worst of the feminist protest poetry they had to endure in secular colleges?

    My question is serious.

  8. August 26, 2008 10:08 pm

    “You will not see him defending himself against the many incredibly nasty personal attacks against him, some of which I would not repeat for decency’s sake. The personal nastiness comes from those who hate what he writes.”

    I don’t care for Tim Bayly’s dishonesty in the way he went about kicking Corrie off his blog back in 2006. That incident was how I became acquainted with the Bayly blog, and I’ve seen Tim engaging in personal nastiness time and time again against people.

    Tim blocked Corrie and her husband’s home access to email him, and then he told the internet how careful he is to deal with public judgments he makes against people — that he takes great care to deal with people off-line about it.

    It was just awful to read that public statement, meanwhile having Corrie call me and email me and tell me that it was her husband who finally called Tim on the phone, and after delaying, Tim finally called her husband back, but by that time, the public “judgment” was already several days old, and so had Tim’s claim about what lengths he goes to to find the real scoop so he can make a proper “judgment.”

    Funny, but neither Corrie, nor her husband, nor her church elders were contacted for this investigation he said he’s careful to do. He blocked them, and they contacted him.

    After you see him dodge good hard questions, accuse people who don’t agree with him on issues of being in rebellion or being unsaved, meanwhile not answering their questions (he even said once he wouldn’t answer the question because he had determined the person was in rebellion), after you see all of Tim’s personal attacks against people — his nastiness — gets old.

    So I blog about it.

    Because I’ve seen him falsely accuse friends of mine. Because he claims to be a pastor, this is serious.

    I don’t think it’s nasty to warn against someone who frequently makes snap judgments against people, especially if this person claims he is a pastor.

    And sometimes I write about his views on the gender debate, expressing where I disagree with those, but usually (I hope always) my disagreements of his Scriptural claims are void of ad homs.

    Regarding the poem – Rebecca said some things about it on her blog. To me, it sounds like a funeral dirge, and totally lacking in joy, and some of the lines are contrary to what Proverbs 31 says about a noble wife.

    So I can’t recommend it as a Scriptural poem about what a good wife should be.

  9. Charis permalink*
    August 27, 2008 7:23 am

    I will pass the last comment through moderation temporarily until Pastor Baker sees it. The account is third party, and I don’t want to engage in any gossip nor damage anyone’s reputation. But this is a very quiet blog with very few visitors and I can’t help but wonder if those who are visiting are here by divine appointment? Is there a potential here for healing and reconciliation between Christians? I would ask that any comments please maintain an attitude of “speaking the truth in LOVE” and Pastor Baker, feel free to use some of those shepherding gifts of yours.

    Warmly,
    Charis

  10. August 27, 2008 8:14 am

    Charis, I was replying to Stephen Baker’s comment.

    Point is – Tim can dish out nastiness himself, and the examples are public for all to see, so I’m hardly surprised if there is some of what he dishes out coming back at him. It doesn’t make it right, though – on either side.

    Also, it is OK to “hate what he writes” if what you are reading is personal accusations of sin against people he doesn’t know — such as what was done with Corrie, Light, and some others.

    If you “hate” that kind of writing, there is nothing wrong with that. There is also nothing wrong with writing about it, and saying so, and this kind of “saying so” should not qualify as “nastiness.”

    By the way, I have been watching the Bayly blog for a couple years now, and have commented on various things they write (including the poem above). I agree with your statement in the main entry:

    The Baylys strike me as strong, stubborn, powerful, unbridled stallions!

  11. Charis permalink*
    August 27, 2008 8:28 am

    Dear Lynn,

    Welcome!
    I edited my comment above some.

    I agree with you that there may be some reaping of what has been sown going on at BaylyBlog. Again, I do not follow that blog, but I am married to a man with whom everything was just peachy (on the surface) as long as everyone agreed with him…. but I died inside…

    Jesus is the role model for how to respond to verbal abuse. This is our calling:

    1 Peter 2:21For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
    22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:
    23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:

    and this is the blessing for obeying our calling:

    1 Peter 3:8 ¶ Finally, be ye all of one mind, having compassion one of another, love as brethren, be pitiful, be courteous:
    9 Not rendering evil for evil, or railing for railing: but contrariwise blessing; knowing that ye are thereunto called, that ye should inherit a blessing.
    10 For he that will love life, and see good days, let him refrain his tongue from evil, and his lips that they speak no guile:
    11 Let him eschew evil, and do good; let him seek peace, and ensue it.

  12. August 27, 2008 8:32 am

    Charis, I tell you what — why not just delete the first comment I made?

    I can rework it, OK? I shouldn’t have brought in extraneous examples not related to the main entry — I was merely reacting to what the man said in the comment, and I can rework it. So, if you want to delete it, I can write another comment, or refrain — I think that would be in keeping with your goals for your blog, as I see them now.

  13. Charis permalink*
    August 27, 2008 8:42 am

    I will edit the comments in a few days if Pastor Baker declines to engage.

  14. August 27, 2008 8:44 am

    OK, thanks.

  15. August 28, 2008 9:23 pm

    “The poet is saying that the woman she is addressing does not want a husband, she wants a wife instead. She wants a man who is not a husband, but a man who is a “wife.” She wants to be worshiped by this “wife.” She wants a helper suitable for her, instead of wanting to be a helper suitable for her husband.”

    Stephen,

    This is the part I have a problem with. There is no misunderstanding.

    She is saying that this is what a wife does for her husband, not what a husband is to do for his wife. She is saying that a wife is to worship her husband and not vice versa.

    “Now, I know that you don’t believe what Mrs. Bayly and I and many others believe about what a godly marriage should look like. But the poem does make more sense when you understand it as the author intended.”

    Pastor Baker, so you believe and teach that a godly marriage should have a wife worshiping her husband, sleep, eat, and dream about her husband, affirm, affirm, affirm her husband and make him “feeeeeeeeelllll”?

    The poem makes sense and I am really concerned that you agree with it. Do you believe that the first part of that poem is a description of a wife’s duties to her husband? If you do, then you teach idolatry.

    “The strength and dignity of the Bayly women is legendary!”

    Then the problem is with the poem and not anyone’s alleged “misunderstanding”.

    As far as soft-hearted sentimentality, I haven’t experienced it neither have I witnessed it. In fact, I have to wonder where the men are who are hold these men accountable for the way they falsely accuse their brothers and sisters in Christ?

  16. August 28, 2008 9:25 pm

    “The blog is a teaching tool directed mainly at church leaders. It is nothing at all like a sermon, a counseling session, a conversation after church, or family fellowship around the dinner table. When God’s truth is denied or attacked, Tim will defend it. You will not see him defending himself against the many incredibly nasty personal attacks against him, some of which I would not repeat for decency’s sake. The personal nastiness comes from those who hate what he writes.”

    Pastor Baker,

    I have personally experienced and witnessed Tim Bayly’s nasty attacks on his fellow brothers and sisters in Christ. And it was NOT due to God’s truth being denied or attacked.

  17. August 28, 2008 9:39 pm

    Charis,

    I am the “Corrie” that Lynn refers to and since it was a very public event, I have no problem with Lynn referring to it. In fact, Pastor Baker should know of it and all the other unfortunate recipients of Tim’s “sentimental, soft-hearted” treatment.

    Tim accused me, on his blog after cutting me off for nothing more than asking him a question (he later admitted to my husband that he reacted because of gossip he heard behind the scenes), of saying things “which are so evil in their opposition to scripture” but refused to publicly back them up with an actual example. I said NO SUCH THING and that was an outright lie and a slanderously false accusation. I hold the word of God in very high esteem and Tim is not the Lone Ranger when it comes to defending the truth of what God’s word teaches.

    I have had several nasty attacks against me on the internet but none so nasty as being accused of saying things that are evil in their opposition against scripture. I would be called a “rug munching bull-dyke” (just one of the many names I have been called on the internet for standing up against Christian racists) any day of the week rather than being accused of what Tim falsely accused me of doing.

    I would also echo Rebecca’s request (another polite person who was kicked off of Tim Bayly’s blog) in that Pastor Baker tells us what this poem is saying about a wife’s role in regards to her husband.

    Is she to worship him like the poem says a wife is to worship him? Is a wife really supposed to be doing the things that the wife in this poem is expecting of her husband?

    Anyone who seeks to be worshiped in the way that this poem describes is in sin.

  18. Charis permalink*
    August 29, 2008 7:41 am

    Thank you for chiming in, Corrie.

    Pastor Baker, the three ladies who have posted all feel offended by Brother Tim. I wonder if you would be able to facilitate a Matthew 18 intervention? Via internet is awkward, nevertheless, I think the Lord ‘s will is unity among believers. Perhaps, Pastor, you could set up a private blog and invite these ladies and Brother Tim and mediate for them in a more private internet setting? You strike me as a gentle man.

    The Baylys are powerful, influential men and need accountability (powerful bucking unbridled stallions who need bridling?) With my husband, the church failed to provide the accountability he needed and the Lord pretty much shelved him ministry-wise. Chuck Colson spoke on the radio program “Breakpoint” about the need for powerful men to submit to accountability.

    Here’s a quote from “When Ego Trumps Accountability” by Colson:

    I speak from experience: When I was in the White House, the President and others sought my advice. I was surprised by my apparent persuasiveness and how it came naturally to me. Combined with my own self-righteousness and my belief in the rightness of my cause, I became dangerous, both to myself and others.

    We all have, I discovered, an infinite capacity for self-justification. I knew I could do no wrong, and I could persuade anyone I was right in any event. Well, I went to prison.

    People who are successful are particularly vulnerable. Nobody tells us “no,” and if we think we’re doing the right thing, as Wolfowitz thought he was, we are really then in peril.

    That’s why, after I got out of prison I committed to always have a group of people I respected around me and to submit to them for any major decision I had to make. For thirty years of ministry, this has protected me from myself.

    I’ve seen Christian leaders, sadly, without accountability, and often they fall hard. Everybody, at every level of life, needs an accountability group—people you can turn to and lean on and trust yourself to. The heart is infinitely deceitful.

    I suspect that the world will continue to produce men like Wolfowitz—brilliant men who go astray because they’re so confident of their own abilities, they become blind.

    The Wolfowitz story is a cautionary tale. Every Christian in authority, from a parent to a boss in the office, needs to find people who care more about God than our egos and who will tell us whether what we’re doing is advancing the Kingdom or our vanity—no matter how great we think we are.

  19. Charis permalink*
    August 29, 2008 7:53 am

    I would be called a “rug munching bull-dyke” (just one of the many names I have been called on the internet for standing up against Christian racists)

    😦
    Odd how men go to that manner of reviling (including my own husband)

    Such men are insecure about their manhood, “stuck” as a little boy. My husband’s “stuckness” came from some sort of early childhood sexual exposure (he was either sodomized or exposed to hard core porn in preschool). They have fears about their own manhood, personal internal struggles with gender confusion, so they project that out… (Joel Davisson believes such emotional arrestedness is quite common and is at the root of the epidemic of male porn addiction – click here)

  20. August 29, 2008 9:43 am

    “I’ve seen Christian leaders, sadly, without accountability, and often they fall hard. Everybody, at every level of life, needs an accountability group—people you can turn to and lean on and trust yourself to. The heart is infinitely deceitful.”

    Charis,

    Thank you for posting Colson’s warnings.

    I think this is a problem with the Baylys and many like them. They are so sure, so right in their own eyes, that they are the guardians of biblical sexuality that they have become deceived with their own interpretation of the Bible (which, btw, (especially after reading the poem) caters specifically to THEM) that they have become the accusers of the brethren, even to the point of accusing them of not being true believers because they dare to disagree with their own personal opinions.

    I will have to check out the Davisson link. I am always amazed how some will resort to calling women “lesbians” or “female dogs” when they feel threatened.

  21. August 29, 2008 1:54 pm

    http://www.baylyblog.com/2008/08/i-think-you-w-1.html

    Here is another post from Tim concerning his dil’s poem.

    Again, he mischaracterizes us and also misrepresents himself and how he deals with people who disagree with him on his blog. After all, it is his way or the highway and any disagreement to his teachings is seen as “slander” and “hatred”:

    “Most of the ruckus happened in places none of our readers would have any reason to know about or read–a news site run by and for sodomites where special attention is given to the biblical doctrine taught in reformed churches (how’s that for exotic, huh?); and several other blogs where women talk to each other about how much they hate God’s order of creation.

    Contrary to what some think, David and I are not impervious to slander and hatred. It bothers us when people misrepresent our doctrinal commitments, attribute to us statements we’ve never made and convictions we’ve never held, claim that we delete comments disagreeing with us, and so on. Having learned long ago that some fools shouldn’t be dignified with an answer, we dont’ respond, generally speaking. We’re fond of the old barnyardism, “Don’t wrestle with a pig in mud because a pig likes mud.””

  22. Charis permalink*
    August 29, 2008 2:45 pm

    Indeed, to frame a disagreement thus does not strike me as Christlike. Jesus was- without exception- always very gentle with women. But Corrie, he does admit that how he deals with them is ignoring them: “we dont’ respond, generally speaking”, which is what he apparently did with you and your beloved husband. And Pastor Baker has not returmed so apparently he has decided to do likewise. Can you forgive Tim for his harshness and let it go? Its really no reflection upon you. That sort of behavior comes out of one’s own heart issues.

  23. Charis permalink*
    August 29, 2008 2:52 pm

    Corrie, Lynn, and Rebecca,
    I would suggest that you consider staying away from his blog. Just don’t read it nor worry about it anymore. They can’t hear your concerns, so its just not a fruitful exercise KWIM? Pray for them, including the young Mrs Bayly and her husband. BLESS the Bayly family! May generational curses be broken, in Jesus’ Name!

    “whatever is true,
    whatever is noble,
    whatever is right,
    whatever is pure,
    whatever is lovely,
    whatever is admirable—
    if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—
    think about such things.”
    Phil 4:8

  24. Charis permalink*
    August 29, 2008 2:57 pm

    I did just read Gwen’s comment over there and she says,

    “Tim, I just spoke to your gem of a daughter-in-law about her poem and I must say, people DID misunderstand it! Even I at first wasn’t totally sure what to make of it, but I knew upon reflection it couldn’t be what certain people were saying it was. Sure enough, Heidi’s intentions were far deeper than many guessed and she is a wise and clever lady! Thanks very much for sending my request to her; she’s a delight to speak with.”

    Do you see? I hear in there that she is MEET for a Bayly man. I sincerely doubt that she is unaware of the family issues… Perhaps her poem is her attempt to speak into that… Its got such a sad sad streak in it 😦 Pray for her!

  25. Charis permalink*
    August 29, 2008 4:44 pm

    Corrie, didn’t I read somewhere that you have 10 children? If you think about this for a minute couldn’t you just ROFL that someone can call you all sorts of awful names as if you are some kind of RADICAL when you have lived the stuff they preach? I feel like I am the poster child for the doctrines which pigeonhole women. While they pontificate from their ivory tower I’ve walked the talk. BTW I LOVE being mommy to my 8! However, I also have gifts of scholarship and insight. I am realizing God does not want that buried.

    At least Tim sounds protective of his daughter in law on his blog. I’ll give him the benefit of the doubt and suggest that probably if he knew you in real life, he wouldn’t dream of insulting you. And he admits in so many words that the talk about her is pushing his buttons- he’s reacting defensively. That doesn’t excuse the behavior, but perhaps it will help explain it.

    I found Heidi’s blog. She’s only 26. Remember when you were 26? Have your views changed as you have experienced life?

    Click Here for Heidi and Joseph’s Blog.
    They are in the pipeline to adopt

    Children are a blessing, as Pastor Baker mentioned

    If you were to come and visit us, Charis, what you would see in these families is warmth and joy. You would see families–and a broader church family–that love to be together, that love the multitudes of children who swarm playfully all over the place, families that have healthy, forgiving, loving, respectful, gentle relationships.

    Infertility must be very painful in that context (although I’m sure they have much support for their adoption 🙂 )

  26. August 30, 2008 12:19 pm

    Charis,

    Yes, I do have 10 children and I have often laughed about the irony of it all. I have also stated elsewhere that I am actualling DOING the things that these armchair patrios merely talk about. On one very patrio list, most of the men’s wives worked outside of the home and only had a couple of children who all went to public school. I got kicked off of that list for not being patriocentric enough.

  27. Careful permalink
    August 30, 2008 12:32 pm

    I have seen firsthand how abusive Tim Bayly and his church are with people who don’t agree 100% with him and his beliefs (slander, excommunication, stalking, etc.). There are many disgruntled people in Bloomington, IN who would agree that Tim Bayly is spiritually abusive. I’d tread lightly. He is, in my opinion, a dangerous person.

  28. Charis permalink*
    August 30, 2008 2:00 pm

    Bless you, Corrie!
    Ours are age 6-24.
    How old are yours?

  29. Charis permalink*
    August 30, 2008 2:14 pm

    Hi Careful,

    With such a strong emphasis upon “authority”, I would assume they would frame that as “accountability” and “church discipline”. . .

    I used to think I would like to have a church which would step up to the plate like that…. but I hear your pain 😦 and I don’t think heavy handed authoritarianism is constructive. I’m sorry you were hurt 😦

    Please click on the “Father’s Love Letter” on the top right of the blog to read your Heavenly Father’s words for you.

    Love, Charis

  30. August 31, 2008 11:56 pm

    Tim Bayly is spiritually abusive. I’d tread lightly. He is, in my opinion, a dangerous person.

    He isn’t my pastor, though. He has no authority over me in any way. From where I sit he’s just another man who blogs a lot on the internet. I don’t live in Bloomington, and I’m not in a PCA church. I don’t hold a job so he can’t fire me or get me fired. If he tried to come after my husband’s job, being where it is, they would probably have the FBI on him like white on rice.

    I only deal with my beliefs and opinions of Tim Bayly’s public comments and actions on his blog, so any charge of libel would be laughable — IOW — I’m not inventing lies about him, and it isn’t libel to express opinions and beliefs that differ from others.

    And by the way, no offense intended, but you did make claims about him that I have no way of verifying, so I am holding your comment about the disgruntled people in Bloomington at arm’s length, and am not making anything of it, one way or another. What you said is not public knowledge, and it would be nothing I could discuss on my blog, for example.

  31. September 1, 2008 12:13 am

    Careful, btw, you’ve just accused Tim Bayly of a boatload of things — slander and stalking being the biggies.

    The fact that you’ve signed your handle as “careful” is quite ironic.

    It’s not a good idea to make accusations like that, and give absolutely no evidence for them.

    Metthinks you are the one who needs to be very careful, Careful.

  32. Light permalink
    September 2, 2008 7:32 am

    Lynn, if I could jump in here. I do think Careful should be careful, but I also tend to believe her. After the brouhaha on Bayly’s blog awhile back when I got banned for asking too many intelligent questions, I got emails from two different gentlemen. They wrote to encourage me, and both of them shared that they had once been in Bayly’s church, and Bayly had been spiritually abusive and almost destroyed their marriages. Now, I don’t know those men from Adam, but it isn’t much of a stretch to believe they were telling the truth. If Bayly treats people so badly in the most public of venues, the internet, I shudder to think how he treats his church members behind closed doors in counseling, where there is no accountability.

  33. September 2, 2008 11:44 am

    Charis,

    Mine range in age from 2 to 23.

    Light, I had the same experience. People saw how Bayly treated me for merely agreeing with you and I received several private emails telling me about how heavy-handed these two were with those in the church who do not toe the line.

    I wouldn’t think it would be too hard to verify what Careful was saying, would it?

    Maybe Careful could explain what he/she means by stalking?

    It is not hard at all for me to believe he is guilty of slander since that is exactly what he did to me on his public blog. He also slandered Light by saying that she said that she doesn’t submit to her husband. If he only knew what kind of woman Light really was he would hang his head in shame. Thanks to Tim, I was introduced to Light and have gotten to “know” a bit about her and she is a godly woman who the Baylys trampled upon with their slanderously false lies.

  34. September 2, 2008 2:45 pm

    You can read about the restraining order here from Mr. Bayly himself (in the note attached to “Normal”‘s comment).

    http://www.baylyblog.com/2008/08/in-africa-it-wo.html

  35. September 2, 2008 3:15 pm

    I want to be clear. I’m not saying I disbelieve Careful. And Tim’s treatment of Corrie and Light would corroborate well with these other accusations.

    What I’m saying is we should not believe an accusation against an elder of a church (or anybody else for that matter) except on the basis of witnesses, as the Scripture says.

  36. Jennifer permalink
    November 18, 2008 8:11 am

    Well, hello hello! Another Christian blog by a wise lady 🙂 I was googling, looking for the WhiteWashed Feminists blog, and found this one by accident. I’m so happy I did 🙂

  37. Jennifer permalink
    November 18, 2008 8:19 am

    “The Baylys strike me as strong, stubborn, powerful, unbridled stallions!”

    Stallions? Ugh. More like mules.

  38. Charis permalink
    November 18, 2008 8:28 am

    Thank you for the kind words, Jennifer 🙂

Trackbacks

  1. Dear Heidi Bayly, « Fulfilling Titus 2:3-5

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s

%d bloggers like this: